12.02.2015-IRC.log

Robert Szczepanek, 2015-02-12 08:35 AM

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URL 	irc://freenode/qgis-certification
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15∶24
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timlinux Hi all
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15∶50
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timlinux he everyone
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hi
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we will wait 10 more minutes
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pcav ok
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15∶59
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timlinux everyone ready
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Jonathan_M joined
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timlinux ?
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pcav: can you paste the wiki page you referenced in the email?
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the link I mean
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Jonathan_M https://hub.qgis.org/wiki/17/Certification - was it that one?
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(I happen to have it open)
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pcav arrived too late ;)
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thanks jonathan
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Jonathan_M Welcome. :)
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pcav I think we are waiting for some more participants, right?
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timlinux Hi Jonathan_Myes that one
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I am not sure who is still to come - I have only 1 hour
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can I first propose a meeting format?
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I want to suggest that rather than diving into the details of the Certification programme
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we rather try to establish roles and tasks and deadlines
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and then ask peopel to go away and come back with something
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We have had already many long dicussions on certification but the achievements / action taken has been quite limited
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we have the training manual and the wiki page and some ideas
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and some guidelines e.g. Vincent's ideas on the mailing list
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So I was going to propose that we use this meeting to establish rolls and coopt volunteers into them
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e,g.:
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* Someone to indentify and deploy a certification software platform (e.g. tao-testing)
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* Someone to establish a fee structure
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ThomasG7 has disconnected (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 35.0.1/20150125222008])
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timlinux * Someone to establish the testing metrics (formulate a list of questions for the examinations)
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* Someone to establish the certificate issuing system
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* Someone to identify a system for certified trainer / trainer shadowing etc
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* Someone to ensure that we have training resources to go with our curriculum
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etc.
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Any thoughts?
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pcav +1
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pcav spiltting tasks in a general framework is the way to go IMHO
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timlinux aneumann: hi - I put the logs so far in this gist: https://gist.github.com/timlinux/ecb9210490959aa2000a
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I will try to keep it updated
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timlinux Everyone else is very silent so either I scared them away with words like 'commit to responsibility' or they love they idea so much they are speechless :-)
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pcav :)
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timlinux Our internal deadline is to have our cert programme up and running by May for the User Conf so we can announce it with a splash there
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it gives us a very short time to achieve something
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Maybe we can go around the list of people present and ask what each person can commit to?
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Jonathan_M Seems ambitious. The wiki page has a timeline that seems longer; they appear to have given up at item 3. :-)
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timlinux yeah the wiki page is also largely unmaintainted
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and yes it is ambitious
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I think it is fine to start with the smallest viable system we can
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and everything is unfunded so that makes it doubly hard
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the idea is that it should a) generate revenue for QGIS and b) add credibility to our project and practitioners using QGIS
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alexbruy: are you able to pitch in work towards the programme, and if so what? Perhaps a localisation system might be useful
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pcav timlinux: I think people are reluctant to invest time and effort in this
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as they feel the advantages will go to those who sit and wait
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don't you think so?
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gioman I'm not
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alexbruy timlinux: well, I can help with developing tests and training resources. and also with localization (ru and ua)
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aneumann I can help adding tests and review existing tests
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but on a limited base
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have other occupations as well ;-)
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timlinux hehe - we are all in the same boat here
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pcav *we* are on this boat ;)
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alexbruy also I have some connections with peoples from universisites, maybe I will be able to engage them into process
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timlinux aneumann: maybe we should put in our budget plans seed funding to establish the programme
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pcav orers are out on the shore
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timlinux because if this is going to work it will take serious committment
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timlinux how about you Cracert_?
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timlinux duiv: ?
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Cracert Hello
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timlinux Cracert: we are going round the room seeing what each person is able to commit to
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and you are in the spotlight :-)
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duiv I'm interested, but have not the intention to invest much time in it to be honest
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Cracert sorry for problem, but I coudn't get into chat
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timlinux no problem
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timlinux did you miss the backlog of conversation? 
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Cracert	my main concern is: who is main target of certification?
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Cracert	yes, I don't have this log
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timlinux	https://gist.github.com/timlinux/ecb9210490959aa2000a <-- logs
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Cracert	target 1: users (many of them)
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Cracert	target 2: advanced users, trainers
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Jonathan_M	Cracert: https://hub.qgis.org/wiki/17/Certification has a number of options from when previously discussed it seems.
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Cracert	thank you timlinux
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timlinux	Cracert: rather than discussing specifics I would prefer that we nominate someone to go offline and tackle each task
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Cracert	ok
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timlinux	Ie if that is a concern, lets identify someone to go and investigate who our target is / should be and compile it into our plans
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timlinux	because otherwise in this meeting we will get lost in microscopic details
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timlinux	and what we need is a macro plan: volunteers who can commit to dealing with specific aspects of the programme
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Cracert	I'm ready to work on that topic, but with very limited time resources for next 3-4 weeks
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timlinux	thats ok we are all in the same position - just take on as big a committment as you think you can manage - it will help us move forward
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timlinux	ginetto: is there something you are willing to pitch in with to help?
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timlinux	Cracert: == robert right?
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ginetto	I'm not experienced in certification... due to my pyqgis traings, I'm whatching what will be the direction of this certification.
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Cracert	yes Robert from Poland
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Jonathan_M	I'm in a similar boat to ginetto.
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timlinux	How about looking into a curriculum for certifying QGIS plugin devs?
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timlinux	btw none of us are experienced in certification
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timlinux	and we do have some collaborators who are
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timlinux	from tertiary education
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ginetto	I've difficulties to focus what would be a complete certification for programming skills in pyqgis
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timlinux	ginetto: we want to start small so something that shows a person is able to create e.g. a plugin and do core tasks - cookbook would be a good basis to use
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ginetto	In my experience there are at least two level of students interested in qgis plougin
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timlinux	again the point of this meeting is more to try get people to identify task that need to happen so that we can get the cert programme going
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ginetto	but... are we following an agenda? I don't want to start to talk about it too early
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timlinux	so lets not go into the details - rather can I ask you to just collate your thoughts onto the wiki pagehttps://hub.qgis.org/projects/17/wiki/Certification
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timlinux	ginetto: it is only a short (1 hour) meeting to try to bootstrap the certifiation programme
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ginetto	timlinux, ok
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timlinux	we can hold more, longer, regular meetings to go into details
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timlinux	right now the object is just to find a core of people willing to commit to making it happen
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vpicavet	Hi all, managed to connect. Is there a backlog of the beginning of the meeting somewhere ?
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pcav	timlinux: my point is: people may be available
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pcav	but probably will not move unless they see a practical advantage
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timlinux	https://gist.github.com/timlinux/ecb9210490959aa2000a , vpicavet:
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ginetto	timlinux, I'm available to share my experience on "kind of strudents" I encoutered
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timlinux	sure the assumption is that all those here are here because there is a practical advantage - they want to make a business from training and certifying people
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Cracert	maybe we should start filling up "Reflexions and questions" on wiki?
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pcav	timlinux: yes, but setting up the programme is a considerable work
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pcav	even if slit
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pcav	split
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timlinux	Cracert: yes I am adding
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pcav	so either we can secure funding for it
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pcav	or those who enroll have to get some bonus
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pcav	IMHO
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Cracert	I mean - to let people fill it within 1-2 weeks with ideas and declarations of help
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timlinux	Cracert: ok that we can do
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Cracert	or maybe find some more user friendly place to do it
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timlinux	pcav: yes I agree we shoud try to get some funding in place
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Cracert	github issues?
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timlinux	also the tertiary education folks will throw time and money into it more easily than 'commercial' folks
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timlinux	Cracert: can you set something up
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timlinux	and then we can send to the list asking people to add themselves
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timlinux	org I can make a google form
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timlinux	or I can make a form I meant
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Cracert	I'm not familiar with google forms but can do it
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timlinux	ok cool
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timlinux	maybe we can jsut list here what questions to aks and I do it
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timlinux	(my english is probably going to be better understood)
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Cracert	you are right
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timlinux	Ok so what do we want to ask? Brain dump please everyone!
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timlinux	Name
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timlinux	Email
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timlinux	Focus area
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timlinux	Available time
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timlinux	Preferred day for meetings
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timlinux	Special skills
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alexbruy	maybe also ideas about process/platform/etc?
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timlinux	yes good
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Cracert	Languages
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alexbruy	expectations from programme?
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Cracert	... human
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timlinux	good
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timlinux	How many questions you can volunteer to formulate
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timlinux	Which topic you will make questions on
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timlinux	I think a large part of the work is just to create a pool of questions
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timlinux	if each person in this chat room make say 10 questions
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timlinux	we would have a good starting basis
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Cracert	and setup some infrastructure to run it
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timlinux	y
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Jonathan_M	Where you come from: Academia/commercial/personal/other?
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timlinux	Cracert: I set up certification.kartoza.com
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timlinux	Jonathan_M: good will add it
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vpicavet	could we have certification.qgis.org instead ?
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timlinux	Cracert: it is a tao-testing instance
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timlinux	vpicavet: of course - that is just a sandbox
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vpicavet	ok
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vpicavet	i'd rather have a sandbox on qgis.org too (even if it's a transparent redirect to somewhere else)
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timlinux	ok duiv can you forward that domain to my server?
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duiv	timlinux: a normal A record?
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duiv	if you give me an IP
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timlinux	78.46.89.12 <-- yes to that
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timlinux	vpicavet: more the point I wanted to make is that we need peopel to log in there and famililarise themselves with it and make a determination "can we use this as our cert platform?"
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timlinux	or is there something better
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timlinux	anyone who wants an admin account there just contact me
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Cracert	"How many questions you can volunteer to formulate" is too general question for me
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timlinux	ok
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Cracert	it depends on type of questions
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Cracert	we planned to make rather small tasks than questions
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timlinux	Cracert: sure again proably it is good to have a look at tao-testing to understand the process
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Cracert	ok
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timlinux	small tasks are fine
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duiv	http://certification.qgis.org/ A record added
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timlinux	but the answer must be something definitive
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timlinux	e.g. a multiple choice
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timlinux	or type in a number representing the result of your analysis etc
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Jonathan_M	So "Closed" questions.
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timlinux	we cannot support qualatitive questions on something like tao
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timlinux	the university folks we had discussions with use persnal evaluations and portfolios to evaluate students
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timlinux	but that will never work for us unless we are paying people to mark student work
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timlinux	Jonathan_M: yeah closed questions
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Jonathan_M	Although the problem with closed questions is the answers will end up online. Then it becomes a matter of just googling them.
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Cracert	Jonathan_M: good point
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timlinux	thats why we want to have a largish pool of questions
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ginetto	stackexchange.com has a good system to manage peer evaluation... ok it's not certification, but it works
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timlinux	and randomise them
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Jonathan_M	They'll still end up online.
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timlinux	yup
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timlinux	they did when I did my MSCE etc
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timlinux	but the certification environment must be controlled then
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timlinux	so that the user cannot e.g. use a crib sheet
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Jonathan_M	Yep. Do-able.
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timlinux	and we need to certify certification centers
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timlinux	again something someone could take on and come up with a proposed workflow
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Jonathan_M	Maybe just certify the examiners. Why certify centres? Except as places to examine the examiners I guess.
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Jonathan_M	Yup.
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Cracert	all such point we should put in one place
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timlinux	yeah either one
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timlinux	yup
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Cracert	and later decide - by PSC voting?
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pcav	agreed timlinux, better certify examiners and trainers than certres
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Jonathan_M	If you can't trust the Certified Trainer after all, then the process went a bit wrong...
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Cracert	I agree too - examiners based
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timlinux	ok - so I will go and make a form asking all certification participants to register their ability to contribute there
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timlinux	and then communally we can formulate a detaild plan of action
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timlinux	I think we only need to ask the PSC to vote on the programme as a whole
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timlinux	or better to ask them to give a mandate to someone to 'setup and run the certification programme' and that person can go back to them when they think things need apprroval
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timlinux	vpicavet: hehe if you go to http://certification.qgis.org it just redirects to my domain - which is probably even worse
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timlinux	I will have to look into how to make it not do that
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vpicavet	yep
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timlinux	I was trying to avoid spending large amounts of time on it until we agree that t is the platform we use
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timlinux	or agree that we want to use something else
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micha_silver	General question: Will Examiners be expected to pay a fee for becoming a certified trainer?
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timlinux	yes - the intention is that all certificates issued will cost something
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timlinux	we need someone to go off and think about a suitable pricing structure
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vpicavet	that was my next question
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Jonathan_M	Another one: How long do we anticipate it would take to train someone to the requisite level to get a regular certificate? 1 day?
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timlinux	and we will have a 'grandfather clause' to create the first group of certified peopel
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micha_silver	Good, to a certifying center can be a profitable business
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vpicavet	would be interesting to check others certification prices
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timlinux	yes
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timlinux	QGIS would take a fee and the certifier woould take a fee
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timlinux	so it will provide an economic platform
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timlinux	and we as a project will benefit by ensuring that training is to a certain standard
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timlinux	which means less misinformed users etc
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Jonathan_M	timlinux: - not neceessarily. Only the trained ones will be less misinformed.
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timlinux	heh yeah
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Jonathan_M	And to get training will require either/or commitment/money
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timlinux	yes
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Cracert	I'm glad we come back to our initial idea of more human-based certification
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Cracert	supported by machies
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Cracert	machines
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micha_silver	and by grandfathers...
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Cracert	certification should be coupled with LTR schedule
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Cracert	so the time is perfect
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Jonathan_M	Some interesting thoughts on Open Source certifications here: http://www.krisbuytaert.be/blog/open-source-certification-friend-or-foe and in comments
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timlinux	Cracert: yes agreed - certs should be against ltr
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micha_silver	So an initial first step could be to ask PSC to appoint someone, or some gruop to be the first official training cernter,
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micha_silver	to offer training to Examiners, and to begin growing the first crop of certified trainers
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timlinux	wouldnt it be better to first make a curriculum and a testing platform first?
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alexbruy	timlinux: +1 for making platform and curriculum first
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timlinux	otherwise what will the training center test and hw will we know that their certification is comparable to htat of another center
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Jonathan_M	+1 agree that the first thing to do is think up the curriculums (plural!). Testing platform requirements built from that.
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micha_silver	I'm thinking that an existing training center would have that much more motivation to build a suitable ciriculum and testing procedure, knowing that they will be officially recogninzed at the end of the process
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Jonathan_M	Why do I say plural? Because the skills needed to be tested in a trainer a different from those of a user. A trainer needs certain "soft" skills. Not just the ability to use QGIS.
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Cracert	in my opinion this is the hard way of certification: trainers -> users
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Cracert	more efficient would be starting with users certification
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timlinux	Jonathan_M: ok we have discussed a lot of this stuff in Essen:
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Jonathan_M	Ah Ok.
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timlinux	so the idea is that traininers should be shadowed
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timlinux	first they should shadow trainers
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timlinux	then the trainer shoudl shadow them
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timlinux	so trainers should not just write an online test and then go off into the world and train
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Jonathan_M	Makes sense,
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timlinux	we could certainly also require that the comple a presentation skill course or something
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vpicavet	the main important point with trainer is that we have to be assured that they make pass the test faithfully
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Jonathan_M	Yup.
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timlinux	and also that we can trust that they will manage the testing process in a good way - not allowing students to cheat etc
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Jonathan_M	Tangent - has the user-base been asked if they think certification would be useful and if they'd get it? If no-one would get it, then there are probably better things you dev types could be doing.
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vpicavet	timlinux: exactly
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micha_silver	All this sounds great, and all the more reason that the cirriculum, shadowing, etc be done by people who are already been teaching (QGIS and other stuff) .
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timlinux	Jonathan_M: anecdotally there is a lot of demand for certification
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timlinux	most of us doing it just issue 'home grown' certificates
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timlinux	from centrally from QGIS.org we would prefer that there was some standardisation
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timlinux	so there is two way demand
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Jonathan_M	Ok. Seems like an important question to ask at the start.
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timlinux	we also want to protect our reputation
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timlinux	if someone is offering a crap course
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timlinux	we should be able to refer people to 'known good' course convenors
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Cracert	So next two questions in our for should be
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Cracert	Will you attend certification?
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Cracert	How much can/wish you pay for that?
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Jonathan_M	timlinux: - makes sense. Just making sure the "market research" had been done.
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timlinux	Cracert: maybe we need two different forms - one for people helping to create the system and one for those looking to get certification
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Jonathan_M	Could we just use a surveymonkey type thing for the "looking for certification"? If so I'm willing to give it a shot.
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Cracert	timlinux: I would concentrate on the first group at the moment
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timlinux	Jonathan_M: yeah we have done a lot of the thinking behind the programme - lots of long discussions at hackfets - starting from Wroclaw when Cracert and Milena raised the idea
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timlinux	we havent had much *doing* though
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Cracert	they can make such research themselves
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Jonathan_M	timlinux: yes, but that's talking to other devs. The users might have Other Views.And the plural of Anecdote isn't data (alas!)
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timlinux	which is why I suggested at the top of the meeting to rather focus on identitying people to *do things* to take us forward rather than to just discuss the topic of certification
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timlinux	yup
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timlinux	So I would be happy if we compile a survey
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Cracert	+1
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timlinux	and spam the blogospehere twitter etc with it
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timlinux	Jonathan_M: not only to devs
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ginetto	sorry I lost last 25' due to network problems...
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timlinux	but trainers and people in tertiary education
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timlinux	but yes getting real hard data is good
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timlinux	ok so I will go off and make two surveys:
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timlinux	1) for potential collaborators to identify whyat they are able to contribute
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timlinux	2) for potential users
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Jonathan_M	timlinux: I'm happy to assit with Survey (2)
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timlinux	ok cool
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timlinux	why not go one further and take it on for yourself
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Jonathan_M	timlinux: - I kinda did earlier, but guess you missed that message: [15:32] <Jonathan_M> Could we just use a surveymonkey type thing for the "looking for certification"? If so I'm willing to give it a shot.
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timlinux	and just come back to the group with a) a link we can spam to all our follwers etc and b) the results at survey end
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timlinux	ah missed that sorry
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timlinux	that would be most excellent
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timlinux	folks I have to roll out the door here.....will someone please post a log of this chat to the wiki when all is done and a link to the log on the community list?
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timlinux	hopefully pcav and Cracertcan pick up with the back history if folks have more questions
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duiv	happy to put the log online + sent email
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Cracert	timlinux: I can do that
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duiv	plz point to a wiki page
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duiv	Cracert: be my guest
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duiv	aka plz do
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Cracert	in case of new troubles I will contact you duiv