QGIS » QGIS Application

URL 	irc://freenode/qgis-certification

15∶24

timlinux Hi all

gioman joined

pcav joined

yjacolin joined

alexbruy joined

15∶50

timlinux he everyone

hi

we will wait 10 more minutes

pcav ok

duiv joined

NBN joined

15∶59

timlinux everyone ready

Jonathan_M joined

timlinux ?

pcav: can you paste the wiki page you referenced in the email?

the link I mean

Jonathan_M https://hub.qgis.org/wiki/17/Certification - was it that one?

(I happen to have it open)

pcav arrived too late ;)

thanks jonathan

Jonathan_M Welcome. :)

pcav I think we are waiting for some more participants, right?

timlinux Hi Jonathan_Myes that one

I am not sure who is still to come - I have only 1 hour

can I first propose a meeting format?

I want to suggest that rather than diving into the details of the Certification programme

we rather try to establish roles and tasks and deadlines

and then ask peopel to go away and come back with something

We have had already many long dicussions on certification but the achievements / action taken has been quite limited

we have the training manual and the wiki page and some ideas

and some guidelines e.g. Vincent's ideas on the mailing list

So I was going to propose that we use this meeting to establish rolls and coopt volunteers into them

e,g.:

* Someone to indentify and deploy a certification software platform (e.g. tao-testing)

* Someone to establish a fee structure

ThomasG7 has disconnected (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 35.0.1/20150125222008])

timlinux * Someone to establish the testing metrics (formulate a list of questions for the examinations)

* Someone to establish the certificate issuing system

* Someone to identify a system for certified trainer / trainer shadowing etc

* Someone to ensure that we have training resources to go with our curriculum

etc.

Any thoughts?

pcav +1

aneumann joined

pcav spiltting tasks in a general framework is the way to go IMHO

timlinux aneumann: hi - I put the logs so far in this gist: https://gist.github.com/timlinux/ecb9210490959aa2000a

I will try to keep it updated

jef joined

timlinux Everyone else is very silent so either I scared them away with words like 'commit to responsibility' or they love they idea so much they are speechless :-)

pcav :)

timlinux Our internal deadline is to have our cert programme up and running by May for the User Conf so we can announce it with a splash there

it gives us a very short time to achieve something

Maybe we can go around the list of people present and ask what each person can commit to?

Jonathan_M Seems ambitious. The wiki page has a timeline that seems longer; they appear to have given up at item 3. :-)

timlinux yeah the wiki page is also largely unmaintainted

and yes it is ambitious

I think it is fine to start with the smallest viable system we can

and everything is unfunded so that makes it doubly hard

the idea is that it should a) generate revenue for QGIS and b) add credibility to our project and practitioners using QGIS

alexbruy: are you able to pitch in work towards the programme, and if so what? Perhaps a localisation system might be useful

pcav timlinux: I think people are reluctant to invest time and effort in this

as they feel the advantages will go to those who sit and wait

don't you think so?

gioman I'm not

alexbruy timlinux: well, I can help with developing tests and training resources. and also with localization (ru and ua)

aneumann I can help adding tests and review existing tests

but on a limited base

have other occupations as well ;-)

timlinux hehe - we are all in the same boat here

pcav *we* are on this boat ;)

alexbruy also I have some connections with peoples from universisites, maybe I will be able to engage them into process

timlinux aneumann: maybe we should put in our budget plans seed funding to establish the programme

pcav orers are out on the shore

timlinux because if this is going to work it will take serious committment

Cracert_ joined

timlinux how about you Cracert_?

Cracert joined

timlinux duiv: ?

Cracert Hello

Cracert_ has disconnected (Client Quit)

timlinux Cracert: we are going round the room seeing what each person is able to commit to

and you are in the spotlight :-)

duiv I'm interested, but have not the intention to invest much time in it to be honest

Cracert sorry for problem, but I coudn't get into chat

timlinux no problem

ginetto joined

timlinux did you miss the backlog of conversation? 

Cracert	my main concern is: who is main target of certification?

Cracert	yes, I don't have this log

timlinux	https://gist.github.com/timlinux/ecb9210490959aa2000a <-- logs

Cracert	target 1: users (many of them)

Cracert	target 2: advanced users, trainers

Jonathan_M	Cracert: https://hub.qgis.org/wiki/17/Certification has a number of options from when previously discussed it seems.

Cracert	thank you timlinux

timlinux	Cracert: rather than discussing specifics I would prefer that we nominate someone to go offline and tackle each task

Cracert	ok

timlinux	Ie if that is a concern, lets identify someone to go and investigate who our target is / should be and compile it into our plans

timlinux	because otherwise in this meeting we will get lost in microscopic details

timlinux	and what we need is a macro plan: volunteers who can commit to dealing with specific aspects of the programme

Cracert	I'm ready to work on that topic, but with very limited time resources for next 3-4 weeks

timlinux	thats ok we are all in the same position - just take on as big a committment as you think you can manage - it will help us move forward

timlinux	ginetto: is there something you are willing to pitch in with to help?

timlinux	Cracert: == robert right?

ginetto	I'm not experienced in certification... due to my pyqgis traings, I'm whatching what will be the direction of this certification.

Cracert	yes Robert from Poland

Jonathan_M	I'm in a similar boat to ginetto.

timlinux	How about looking into a curriculum for certifying QGIS plugin devs?

timlinux	btw none of us are experienced in certification

timlinux	and we do have some collaborators who are

timlinux	from tertiary education

ginetto	I've difficulties to focus what would be a complete certification for programming skills in pyqgis

timlinux	ginetto: we want to start small so something that shows a person is able to create e.g. a plugin and do core tasks - cookbook would be a good basis to use

ginetto	In my experience there are at least two level of students interested in qgis plougin

timlinux	again the point of this meeting is more to try get people to identify task that need to happen so that we can get the cert programme going

ginetto	but... are we following an agenda? I don't want to start to talk about it too early

timlinux	so lets not go into the details - rather can I ask you to just collate your thoughts onto the wiki pagehttps://hub.qgis.org/projects/17/wiki/Certification

-->|	micha_silver ([email protected]) has joined #qgis-certification

timlinux	ginetto: it is only a short (1 hour) meeting to try to bootstrap the certifiation programme

ginetto	timlinux, ok

timlinux	we can hold more, longer, regular meetings to go into details

-->|	vpicavet ([email protected]) has joined #qgis-certification

timlinux	right now the object is just to find a core of people willing to commit to making it happen

vpicavet	Hi all, managed to connect. Is there a backlog of the beginning of the meeting somewhere ?

pcav	timlinux: my point is: people may be available

pcav	but probably will not move unless they see a practical advantage

timlinux	https://gist.github.com/timlinux/ecb9210490959aa2000a , vpicavet:

ginetto	timlinux, I'm available to share my experience on "kind of strudents" I encoutered

timlinux	sure the assumption is that all those here are here because there is a practical advantage - they want to make a business from training and certifying people

Cracert	maybe we should start filling up "Reflexions and questions" on wiki?

pcav	timlinux: yes, but setting up the programme is a considerable work

pcav	even if slit

pcav	split

timlinux	Cracert: yes I am adding

pcav	so either we can secure funding for it

pcav	or those who enroll have to get some bonus

pcav	IMHO

Cracert	I mean - to let people fill it within 1-2 weeks with ideas and declarations of help

timlinux	Cracert: ok that we can do

Cracert	or maybe find some more user friendly place to do it

timlinux	pcav: yes I agree we shoud try to get some funding in place

Cracert	github issues?

timlinux	also the tertiary education folks will throw time and money into it more easily than 'commercial' folks

timlinux	Cracert: can you set something up

timlinux	and then we can send to the list asking people to add themselves

timlinux	org I can make a google form

timlinux	or I can make a form I meant

Cracert	I'm not familiar with google forms but can do it

timlinux	ok cool

timlinux	maybe we can jsut list here what questions to aks and I do it

timlinux	(my english is probably going to be better understood)

Cracert	you are right

timlinux	Ok so what do we want to ask? Brain dump please everyone!

-->|	gioman2 ([email protected]) has joined #qgis-certification

timlinux	Name

timlinux	Email

timlinux	Focus area

timlinux	Available time

timlinux	Preferred day for meetings

timlinux	Special skills

alexbruy	maybe also ideas about process/platform/etc?

timlinux	yes good

Cracert	Languages

alexbruy	expectations from programme?

Cracert	... human

timlinux	good

timlinux	How many questions you can volunteer to formulate

timlinux	Which topic you will make questions on

|<--	gioman has left freenode (Remote host closed the connection)

timlinux	I think a large part of the work is just to create a pool of questions

timlinux	if each person in this chat room make say 10 questions

timlinux	we would have a good starting basis

Cracert	and setup some infrastructure to run it

timlinux	y

Jonathan_M	Where you come from: Academia/commercial/personal/other?

timlinux	Cracert: I set up certification.kartoza.com

timlinux	Jonathan_M: good will add it

vpicavet	could we have certification.qgis.org instead ?

timlinux	Cracert: it is a tao-testing instance

timlinux	vpicavet: of course - that is just a sandbox

vpicavet	ok

vpicavet	i'd rather have a sandbox on qgis.org too (even if it's a transparent redirect to somewhere else)

timlinux	ok duiv can you forward that domain to my server?

duiv	timlinux: a normal A record?

duiv	if you give me an IP

timlinux	78.46.89.12 <-- yes to that

timlinux	vpicavet: more the point I wanted to make is that we need peopel to log in there and famililarise themselves with it and make a determination "can we use this as our cert platform?"

timlinux	or is there something better

timlinux	anyone who wants an admin account there just contact me

Cracert	"How many questions you can volunteer to formulate" is too general question for me

timlinux	ok

Cracert	it depends on type of questions

Cracert	we planned to make rather small tasks than questions

timlinux	Cracert: sure again proably it is good to have a look at tao-testing to understand the process

Cracert	ok

timlinux	small tasks are fine

duiv	http://certification.qgis.org/ A record added

timlinux	but the answer must be something definitive

timlinux	e.g. a multiple choice

timlinux	or type in a number representing the result of your analysis etc

Jonathan_M	So "Closed" questions.

timlinux	we cannot support qualatitive questions on something like tao

|<--	gioman2 has left freenode (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)

timlinux	the university folks we had discussions with use persnal evaluations and portfolios to evaluate students

timlinux	but that will never work for us unless we are paying people to mark student work

timlinux	Jonathan_M: yeah closed questions

Jonathan_M	Although the problem with closed questions is the answers will end up online. Then it becomes a matter of just googling them.

Cracert	Jonathan_M: good point

timlinux	thats why we want to have a largish pool of questions

ginetto	stackexchange.com has a good system to manage peer evaluation... ok it's not certification, but it works

timlinux	and randomise them

Jonathan_M	They'll still end up online.

timlinux	yup

timlinux	they did when I did my MSCE etc

timlinux	but the certification environment must be controlled then

timlinux	so that the user cannot e.g. use a crib sheet

Jonathan_M	Yep. Do-able.

timlinux	and we need to certify certification centers

timlinux	again something someone could take on and come up with a proposed workflow

Jonathan_M	Maybe just certify the examiners. Why certify centres? Except as places to examine the examiners I guess.

Jonathan_M	Yup.

Cracert	all such point we should put in one place

timlinux	yeah either one

timlinux	yup

Cracert	and later decide - by PSC voting?

pcav	agreed timlinux, better certify examiners and trainers than certres

Jonathan_M	If you can't trust the Certified Trainer after all, then the process went a bit wrong...

Cracert	I agree too - examiners based

timlinux	ok - so I will go and make a form asking all certification participants to register their ability to contribute there

timlinux	and then communally we can formulate a detaild plan of action

timlinux	I think we only need to ask the PSC to vote on the programme as a whole

timlinux	or better to ask them to give a mandate to someone to 'setup and run the certification programme' and that person can go back to them when they think things need apprroval

-->|	_3nids_ (c2d11892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.209.24.146) has joined #qgis-certification

timlinux	vpicavet: hehe if you go to http://certification.qgis.org it just redirects to my domain - which is probably even worse

timlinux	I will have to look into how to make it not do that

vpicavet	yep

timlinux	I was trying to avoid spending large amounts of time on it until we agree that t is the platform we use

timlinux	or agree that we want to use something else

-->|	Frills_ (4f79b4b8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.121.180.184) has joined #qgis-certification

micha_silver	General question: Will Examiners be expected to pay a fee for becoming a certified trainer?

timlinux	yes - the intention is that all certificates issued will cost something

timlinux	we need someone to go off and think about a suitable pricing structure

vpicavet	that was my next question

Jonathan_M	Another one: How long do we anticipate it would take to train someone to the requisite level to get a regular certificate? 1 day?

timlinux	and we will have a 'grandfather clause' to create the first group of certified peopel

micha_silver	Good, to a certifying center can be a profitable business

vpicavet	would be interesting to check others certification prices

timlinux	yes

timlinux	QGIS would take a fee and the certifier woould take a fee

timlinux	so it will provide an economic platform

timlinux	and we as a project will benefit by ensuring that training is to a certain standard

timlinux	which means less misinformed users etc

-->|	gioman2 ([email protected]) has joined #qgis-certification

Jonathan_M	timlinux: - not neceessarily. Only the trained ones will be less misinformed.

timlinux	heh yeah

Jonathan_M	And to get training will require either/or commitment/money

timlinux	yes

Cracert	I'm glad we come back to our initial idea of more human-based certification

|<--	ginetto has left freenode (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)

Cracert	supported by machies

Cracert	machines

micha_silver	and by grandfathers...

-->|	host_ (02e02941@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.224.41.65) has joined #qgis-certification

|<--	gioman2 has left freenode (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

Cracert	certification should be coupled with LTR schedule

Cracert	so the time is perfect

Jonathan_M	Some interesting thoughts on Open Source certifications here: http://www.krisbuytaert.be/blog/open-source-certification-friend-or-foe and in comments

timlinux	Cracert: yes agreed - certs should be against ltr

micha_silver	So an initial first step could be to ask PSC to appoint someone, or some gruop to be the first official training cernter,

micha_silver	to offer training to Examiners, and to begin growing the first crop of certified trainers

timlinux	wouldnt it be better to first make a curriculum and a testing platform first?

alexbruy	timlinux: +1 for making platform and curriculum first

timlinux	otherwise what will the training center test and hw will we know that their certification is comparable to htat of another center

Jonathan_M	+1 agree that the first thing to do is think up the curriculums (plural!). Testing platform requirements built from that.

micha_silver	I'm thinking that an existing training center would have that much more motivation to build a suitable ciriculum and testing procedure, knowing that they will be officially recogninzed at the end of the process

Jonathan_M	Why do I say plural? Because the skills needed to be tested in a trainer a different from those of a user. A trainer needs certain "soft" skills. Not just the ability to use QGIS.

Cracert	in my opinion this is the hard way of certification: trainers -> users

Cracert	more efficient would be starting with users certification

timlinux	Jonathan_M: ok we have discussed a lot of this stuff in Essen:

Jonathan_M	Ah Ok.

timlinux	so the idea is that traininers should be shadowed

timlinux	first they should shadow trainers

timlinux	then the trainer shoudl shadow them

timlinux	so trainers should not just write an online test and then go off into the world and train

Jonathan_M	Makes sense,

timlinux	we could certainly also require that the comple a presentation skill course or something

-->|	S (1fbae336@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.186.227.54) has joined #qgis-certification

|<--	S has left freenode (Client Quit)

vpicavet	the main important point with trainer is that we have to be assured that they make pass the test faithfully

Jonathan_M	Yup.

timlinux	and also that we can trust that they will manage the testing process in a good way - not allowing students to cheat etc

Jonathan_M	Tangent - has the user-base been asked if they think certification would be useful and if they'd get it? If no-one would get it, then there are probably better things you dev types could be doing.

vpicavet	timlinux: exactly

micha_silver	All this sounds great, and all the more reason that the cirriculum, shadowing, etc be done by people who are already been teaching (QGIS and other stuff) .

timlinux	Jonathan_M: anecdotally there is a lot of demand for certification

timlinux	most of us doing it just issue 'home grown' certificates

timlinux	from centrally from QGIS.org we would prefer that there was some standardisation

timlinux	so there is two way demand

Jonathan_M	Ok. Seems like an important question to ask at the start.

timlinux	we also want to protect our reputation

timlinux	if someone is offering a crap course

timlinux	we should be able to refer people to 'known good' course convenors

Cracert	So next two questions in our for should be

Cracert	Will you attend certification?

Cracert	How much can/wish you pay for that?

Jonathan_M	timlinux: - makes sense. Just making sure the "market research" had been done.

timlinux	Cracert: maybe we need two different forms - one for people helping to create the system and one for those looking to get certification

Jonathan_M	Could we just use a surveymonkey type thing for the "looking for certification"? If so I'm willing to give it a shot.

Cracert	timlinux: I would concentrate on the first group at the moment

timlinux	Jonathan_M: yeah we have done a lot of the thinking behind the programme - lots of long discussions at hackfets - starting from Wroclaw when Cracert and Milena raised the idea

-->|	ginetto ([email protected]) has joined #qgis-certification

timlinux	we havent had much *doing* though

Cracert	they can make such research themselves

Jonathan_M	timlinux: yes, but that's talking to other devs. The users might have Other Views.And the plural of Anecdote isn't data (alas!)

timlinux	which is why I suggested at the top of the meeting to rather focus on identitying people to *do things* to take us forward rather than to just discuss the topic of certification

timlinux	yup

timlinux	So I would be happy if we compile a survey

Cracert	+1

timlinux	and spam the blogospehere twitter etc with it

timlinux	Jonathan_M: not only to devs

ginetto	sorry I lost last 25' due to network problems...

timlinux	but trainers and people in tertiary education

timlinux	but yes getting real hard data is good

timlinux	ok so I will go off and make two surveys:

timlinux	1) for potential collaborators to identify whyat they are able to contribute

timlinux	2) for potential users

Jonathan_M	timlinux: I'm happy to assit with Survey (2)

timlinux	ok cool

timlinux	why not go one further and take it on for yourself

Jonathan_M	timlinux: - I kinda did earlier, but guess you missed that message: [15:32] <Jonathan_M> Could we just use a surveymonkey type thing for the "looking for certification"? If so I'm willing to give it a shot.

timlinux	and just come back to the group with a) a link we can spam to all our follwers etc and b) the results at survey end

timlinux	ah missed that sorry

timlinux	that would be most excellent

timlinux	folks I have to roll out the door here.....will someone please post a log of this chat to the wiki when all is done and a link to the log on the community list?

timlinux	hopefully pcav and Cracertcan pick up with the back history if folks have more questions

duiv	happy to put the log online + sent email

Cracert	timlinux: I can do that

duiv	plz point to a wiki page

duiv	Cracert: be my guest

duiv	aka plz do

Cracert	in case of new troubles I will contact you duiv